Shortcut for Dingbats in ID?

[gratzergraphics]

Hi. Is there a built-in shortcut for Zapf Dingbats (especially having it apply to only one character when, or all selected text) in InDesign like there is in Quark XPress?I guess I would just create my own if there isn't one.

Thanks.

[eugenetyson]

What you really need is to make a nested style within your paragraph style.

[The Repro Kid]

I'm with you, gratzergraphics. Inserting a single Zaph Dingbat while typing a block of text, without going to the mouse or missing a single keystroke, is something from quark that I miss very much. As far as I can tell, InDesign's approach to this once simple task is to make a trip to the Glyphs palette each and every time you need to call up that dingbat, you can make sets of commonly used glyphs, blah, blah, but still you must remove your fingers from the keyboard and mouse around to insert the one glyph, thus breaking your flow and wasting lots of time. You could also make a Zaph Character style, like EugeneStetson mentioned and apply it to each and every character each time you need a dingbat, but again lots of mousing and wasted time, frustration etc.

What I do to minimize the pain of all this unnecessary mouse and palette futzing, is type an ASCI character that I know I won't be needing in any of the type and then do a Find/Change once I'm finished, to change the special character to my Zaph Dingbat. So if I need a Ballot Box at the beginning of each paragraph in a block of text, I'll type some other character, like a Bullet, and then Find/Change when I'm finished typing the whole text box. If bullets are being used elsewhere, I'll use something a little less common, like å.

It's not as easy as the quark way, but I think it's way easier that endless mousing with the glyph and character style palettes.

[eugenetyson]

How about just setting up a bullet that has the dingbat in it.

A simple keystroke to activate a paragraph style would insert the dingbat, format the line and indents etc... of course this would only work if the dingbat at the start of the paragraph.

So a line of Mastercard (box) Visa (box) Cheque (box) wouldn't work.

You could always just copy the dingbat and as you type just ctrl v and your hands never leave the keyboard.

A simple | could be inserted and just find replace that at the end for the precious dingbat that is required :D

Here's my favourite though. Sometimes I may set a whole paragraph of text in dingbats. Because I may have a Dingbat to seperate points along the paragraph. And to make sure that I have equal spacing between each glyph that is the seperator I use en spaces. I then set up a Nested Style in that Paragraph that changes the font to a readable font, then nest in the dingbat and revert to text and repeat. That way, if I miss a step it's clearly visible to me that the correct spacing isn't inserted between my dingbat glyphs, and I can easily edit it, which turns it into a readable font.

Clever.

[The Repro Kid]

Howdy Eugene, A bullet is just an example, Zaph dingbats are commonly used in many other instances.

Curious, are you familiar with the Quark Shortcut the original post is talking about?

What we are talking about is being able to typeset a single Zaph Dingbat character anywhere in a block of text, while currently typing in a font other than Zaph, without interrupting typing, and without affecting any of the following characters after the single dingbat. Anywhere in the paragraph, even in the middle of a word or sentence. All without stopping typing. No Styles, not palettes, no stopping to do anything else other than continuing to type. You can also use the same shortcut to convert a range of selected text.

For me it is something that is greatly missed :(

[eugenetyson]

I know exactly what is meant here. I just hated the zaph shortcut, personally. Typing away, a serious of innocuous keystrokes, font changes, it was just trouble for me personally. I actually prefer the way I can do it in InDesign. All I have to do is put in a special character that I denote and I can change the sentence to any character style, not only Dingbats, but Wingdings also and Hoefler Ornaments too if I need to. I guess I just don't miss Quark all that much ever since changing to InDesign. I used Quark for 5 years and I have to say it's a breath of fresh air to use InDesign. Things such as changing to Zapf halfway through a sentence seem small in comparison to what InDesign is capable of in typesetting abilities.

I actually hadn't thought of the Zapf shortcut until recently when I read this post. I guess it's just something that I don't miss that much from Quark.

[Lou Wrench]

What was the zapf short cut in Quark?
If I set shotcuts to "Quark set" then type in the shortcut, it may find the command that may be hidden in InDesign then, just maybe, we can create a new shortcut! If the quark set is complete then Indesign should have the facility. Am I making sense? or has the day been too long?
Lou

[micke]

In Quark on a Mac, it's Command - Option - Z. For this keyboard shortcut to work, in Preferences > Application > Undo, The Redo Key must be Command - Shift - Z (that last is from Visual QuickSart Guide, QuarkXPress 6, Weinmann and Lourekis, p. 504).

micke

[The Repro Kid]

Lou, I haven't used the InDesign Quark keystrokes equivelents, so I don't know if it's there.

The shortcut is: Typing "Command-Option-z" while typing in Quark will cause the very next character to be a Zaph dingbat instead of the font you were originally typing in, but as you keep on typing, the type reverts back to the original font after the one dingbat is set.

Eugene, to me, shortcuts are like money, being thin, women, etc. You never have have enough, you can never be too, and you can never grow tired of the new. I don't think I have such strong feelings about computer graphics software as you have. There are things about Pagemaker that I miss, but it's not the program that I would pick to start project. I'm still a little confused as to how setting up elaborate paragraph styles with nested character styles and then selecting and applying said styles could possibly be easier than just typing, but hey, if you have the extra time and/or can't type real fast, then go for it! :o

[The Repro Kid]

micke, quark 7 now defaults with the undo as Command-Shift-z, they also fixed the step and repeat shortcut to not interfere with hiding the dock, it's now Command-Option-R.

[eugenetyson]

I'm still a little confused as to how setting up elaborate paragraph styles with nested character styles and then selecting and applying said styles could possibly be easier than just typing, but hey, if you have the extra time and/or can't type real fast, then go for it! :o

Repro, you're talking to a guy that uses the contextual key on a windows keyboard in mid-type to edit Text Frame Options etc. I literally fly through the keyboard typing. into dialgouge boxes and back out into type again without even thinking about it. Do I miss having a shortcut for dingbats? Not really.

However I'm not completely heartless when it comes to Quark. I do miss the keyboard shortcut to enter the Font. I miss that little dousy so much.

But if you really want to do this

Using the Quark Shortcuts ( I use them rather than the InDesign ones because I know the Quark ones, 5 years of it, hard to change)

In the midst of typing, just hit Shift Ctrl+D type the font you want and press return or Shift Ctrl + D again. And just keep typing.

Not the exact same thing, but close.

[The Repro Kid]

...However I'm not completely heartless when it comes to Quark. I do miss the keyboard shortcut to enter the Font. I miss that little dousy so much.

Wow, you're working too hard Eugene. It's exactly the same as in quark, just a different command. If you want to change the font of certain text in the control palette in InDesign, just type command-6 and the first field of the control palette will be highlighted, then you can type a few characters of the Post Script Name or the full name and your font will change. You can tab through the control palette just like you could in Quark. In quark you type Command-Option-M to enter the control palette, with inDesign you type Command-6. This works with whatever tool you are in, just like in quark (I hope you'll excuse me if I don't PC translate the key commands).

...Using the Quark Shortcuts ( I use them rather than the InDesign ones because I know the Quark ones, 5 years of it, hard to change)...I always make a point of not customizing key commands in the programs I learn. I like to know how the programs work in their default state, it helps when working with and communicating with other people and it helps me to stay grounded as to which program I'm working in. I enjoy working in as many programs as possible, as it keeps me sharp and nimble. Now that we have speed dial cell phones, etc, I have plenty of room to memorize shortcuts, as I don't have to memorize all my phone numbers anymore ;)

Keep up the good work!

[micke]

micke, quark 7 now defaults with the undo as Command-Shift-z, they also fixed the step and repeat shortcut to not interfere with hiding the dock, it's now Command-Option-R.

Thanks, I didn't know that. It drives me crazy that I lost the shortcut for step and repeat in OSX. I haven't used Quark 7 yet… we're still using Quark 6.5 at school, and that's over. Next semester what used to be my Quark class must be taught in InDesign. I think we're probably one of the last schools in NYC with Quark classes, but it seems that's history. Pratt switched to InDesign about 3 years ago, and I'm pretty sure SVA did it a couple years back.

Quark brought that on themselves with v5, which was a mess for the first year and drove everyone crazy. Not to mention years of wonderful customer service:D. Actually, they are really very nice and pretty efficient now (years too late).

Well, it's over to InDesign seriously for me. Guess I'll spend winter break with Lynda, Anyone have any comments on that? Any other advice on learning InDesign? I already have my nose in RealWorld InDesign.

Repro, I agree with you about using the shortcuts for the program I'm in. I was thinking about using the Quark shortcuts in ID (after all, I've been using them for 17 years, and use them without any pain) but I might as well just learn ID's shortcuts, especially since I'll be teaching it in 2 months.

One thing I don't don't like is the ID shortcut for Fit in Window… you can't hold down the Command key and hit zero on the numeric keypad… you have to use the zero on the typing keyboard, which I haven't done for years (because I always hit the "o" by accident and then have to cancel out of the 'Open' dialog box). I tried to change it in custom key shortcuts, but InDesign wouldn't let me. I really don't understand that one, since I use Command-zero in Illustrator and PS for fit in window. Oh well.:confused:

micke

[The Repro Kid]

Well micke you've been using quark as long as I have, cool. I never understood the Bad Customer Service reputation with Quark, any time I ever called them they were very nice, but then agin, I never really had to ask them any ridiculous questions, maybe that helped. Lots of large companies in Los Angeles use Quark. I think it's ok for schools to teach one program, but I think the wise student will find a way to learn InDesign and Quark on their own. I know when I was young I made sure to teach myself both Pagemaker and Quark and never made a fuss about which one I had to use on the job. The Graphic Arts industry is very competitive and the smart designer will arm themselves with every advantage they can get. As wonderful as InDesign is, nothing shouts out "inexperienced" as much as the statement, "I don't do quark." My last gig at very large beverage manufacturer in Los Angeles had both InDesign and Quark. I was the marketing team's personal art department, the company's holding company had a very large Ad Agency a few floors up that did the brunt of the work, and all their work was in Quark. I love that situation because I could make all my new files in indesign and work on all the legacy files in quark. I think that is the best way to transition any work place, do all the legacy in the original program and do any new work in the new program. It's the most cost effective way. It would make an interesting model for an advanced or upper division class.

[micke]

Repro, I certainly agree with you that for the next few years, at least, the job seeker who knows both Quark and InDesign will be in the best position. I tell my students that all the time. Both programs basically do the same thing, so knowing what you have to do is as important as knowing how to do it in either program. I try to teach the basics of print production as much as I teach Quark techniques.

As far as Quark's customer service: When I bought the educational version of Quark 4 it came with a software key, but I had a new Mac with USB ports, so I needed an adaptor to plug in the damn dongle. It took 2 weeks and hours on the phone before I got it, and I not only had to get it straightened out with Quark, who had habit of leaving me on hold interminably, but had to deal with their 3rd party supplier as well. I got pretty frustrated! Actually, after my second call to Quark, I went out and bought a speaker phone. When I got a later version, I think it was 6, I wanted to register over the phone, as that machine was not on the internet. I dreaded going back to Quark on the phone, but by that time Quark had outsourced their customer service to India, so I wasn't talking to Denver this time. They didn't put me on hold for hours, and were very friendly and efficient that time. Now if you call them, they are sweet as pie. They even call me to see if I want to go to seminars or offer special prices on upgrades, etc.

What I'm dreading now is when Adobe gets in the same position Quark was in for so many years, having the market cornered, will they be the same way?

micke

[The Repro Kid]

I've never had a piece of software that required a dongle, but I've spoken to many people who have, and they pretty much all had nightmare stories to tell, no matter who was the software manufacturer :o

[AdobeAce]

Well, it's over to InDesign seriously for me. Guess I'll spend winter break with Lynda, Anyone have any comments on that? Any other advice on learning InDesign? I already have my nose in RealWorld InDesign.
micke

Hi micke,

RealWorld InDesign is an excellent choice. David Blatner has a way of making features clear, and his writing is quite entertaining. Years ago, when I read his QuarkXPress Book, I began using Quark at a much higher level. (I'm a Quark Certified Expert in Quark 6.) I also like Sandee Cohen's Visual Quickstart Guide. For me, when I first had to learn InDesign, it was the fastest way to learn the program.

Ace

[eugenetyson]

I used a book called CS2 for Dummies and CS2 Bible when learning CS2 obviously. It was great for the transition from Quark to InDesign. In which I'm completely self taught. Never had a lesson in it, just picked it up and started doing projects in it. Had the books beside me and just referred to them when I needed them. Now the books reside on someone else's desk in another office somewhere and I hope they get passsed from desk to desk and user to user.

[The Repro Kid]

micke, when I first bought CS adobe offered 5 free bonus goodies, one was some InDesign basics tutorials (by Lynda) that were already on the disk and just needed to be unlocked. I chose that and viewed and then hit the ground running. My main tactic after that was first I try to do something the Illustrator way, if that doesn't help I'll try the quark way, and if that doesn't work I'll try the Pagemaker way. That pretty much covers 80 or 90% of the basic operations. Other than that, I'll just open up the help menu, I've haven't yet bought a book for InDesign.

Naturally, this approach would only work for someone who has a lot of prior experience, such as yourself.

[gratzergraphics]

Thanks, everyone, for responding and posting such great ideas as alternatives to this issue.

[eugenetyson]

Ah it was a great little discussion. It is interesting to uncover new workflows, other peoples experiences and workarounds. It was a nice little topic.