Vector Objects and Photoshop

[Topher]

I've been beating this horse for months now on the Adobe Forums. So I think I'll drag the argument here as well.

A vector element in Illustrator, copying and pasting as a smart object into Photoshop. Saving the Photoshop file to a PDF or EPS, the "smart object" rasterizes.

I have a major gripe with designers setting type in a PSD file, because they have this idea that type will stay vector upon output. You cannot set type in a PSD, save as a PSD and use the file in an Indesign document and get vector type as a result, its just not going to happen.

What causes the "Include Vector Data" to be grayed out when saving as an EPS out of Photoshop? Why does 100% live type, in its own layer, with no filters or effects applied to it, not output as vector when saving as a PDF, out of Photoshop?

Sorry for the numerous questions/ranting, but this is an issue that drives me absolutely crazy sometimes. :eek:

[The Repro Kid]

The smart object rasterizes when saved as a PS eps because a smart object is in effect a "linked file." When the file is saved as a photoshop file, the photoshop file retains the link, and the original vector file can be edited and the link will update in PS and show your changes.

Note that the smart object text itself cannot be edited in PS, you can only change scale, flop, etc, but no editing of the text itself. The text must be edited in Illus. whereupon PS updates the link and your changes are then reflected.

If Photoshop was to retain the smartobject in an EPS the linked file would have to be embedded, but since the text itself cannot be edited in PS, embedding the linked file really wouldn't do much good, and EPS files are geared to be not editable to begin with, EPS files can only be edited in the original program that created them, that is what an eps file is -- Encapsulated, so no editing from outside programs can be performed.

If you need vector type set from Illustrator to be pasted into PS and then be editable;
1) Copy your Illustrator text
2) Select your text tool in PS and click anywhere on the canvas -- this will create a new text layer
3) Paste -- you will now have editable text from Illustartor in PS. This can be saved to a PS eps and the vector data can be retained.

I've been beating this horse for months now on the Adobe Forums. So I think I'll drag the argument here as well.
That's why I don't hang out on the adobe forums ;)

[Paul C]

My workflow means that I have to set type in PS quite a bit and here's how I deal with it: I save a layered EPS and then Distill it. The PS type is turned into outlines and all other vector data remains. Unfortunately Smart Objects are rasterized so PS is not quite there yet in dealing with vector data, although it has come a long way…
peace

[DCurry]

I save a layered EPS

Hi, Paul - just curious how you can save a layered EPS from PS? The layers checkbox is automatically unchecked and grayed out, and Save a Copy becomes selected.

[Paul C]

DCurry - long time.
I believe what happens is when you save an unflattened PS file as an EPS that it merges everything that is not vector, much like Distiller. If you Distill the EPS the type and all vector objects will remain vector in the PDF. If, however, you try to open the EPS in PS again it will display the rasterize dialog box and you will end up with a flattened and rasterized file.
I save the EPS to the desktop so it can retain the filename (no copy) and delete it as soon as I Distill. That is the only use I have for an EPS from Photoshop (although in olden days I liked them because they previewed a little better in Quark). You could also dump it in a watched folder.
I also sometimes have to export an EPS from InDesign or Illustrator and Distlll when printers have CID font issues. There are a lot of older rips out there (especially at newpapers, it seems) that cannot deal with CID font encoding. When you export a PDF from InDesign, most Open Type fonts are CID font encoded (I believe it's a larger character set) so the work around is to export a PDF and Distill…
The unfortunate part of all this is that Distilling creates outlines, destroying font hinting, but the difference is so slight that it's worth the trade off…
peace

[The Repro Kid]

DCurry - long time.
I believe what happens is when you save an unflattened PS file as an EPS that it merges everything that is not vector, much like Distiller. If you Distill the EPS the type and all vector objects will remain vector in the PDF. If, however, you try to open the EPS in PS again it will display the rasterize dialog box and you will end up with a flattened and rasterized file.
I save the EPS to the desktop so it can retain the filename (no copy) and delete it as soon as I Distill. That is the only use I have for an EPS from Photoshop (although in olden days I liked them because they previewed a little better in Quark). You could also dump it in a watched folder.
I also sometimes have to export an EPS from InDesign or Illustrator and Distlll when printers have CID font issues. There are a lot of older rips out there (especially at newpapers, it seems) that cannot deal with CID font encoding. When you export a PDF from InDesign, most Open Type fonts are CID font encoded (I believe it's a larger character set) so the work around is to export a PDF and Distill…
The unfortunate part of all this is that Distilling creates outlines, destroying font hinting, but the difference is so slight that it's worth the trade off…
peace

I not sure you need for all those extra steps. When you save an EPS with a text layer and using the preserve vector data, the type will print as outline vector, you just can't reopen the file. You don't need to distill the file. Make and save a PS file with text and save that. Then save-off your EPS(copy) as a final and preserve vector data. If you need to edit it, you have the orig PS file. The fonts need to be loaded in your system for them to print correctly. If you have the fonts loaded you shouldn't lose your hinting when you output the EPS. This also goes pdf files, if the correct fonts are loaded, your PDF file should print the actual font and it's hinting.

[Paul C]

That won't really work for me Repro because all my work is sent out to multiple vendors. I don't know what software they're using to lay all this out (magazines, newpapers, etc…) so a PDF is the most widely accepted and bulletproof solution for me…
peace

[The Repro Kid]

The .eps with text saved with will work, it is not a tricky/problematic format. Your prob is most likely with your vendors, they may feel the need to open and resave your .eps which will screw things up -- and they need to load the fonts.

I would never allow a vendor to print a PDF aprroximated font. They need to load the fonts...

[Paul C]

Repro - If you open an PS EPS in Photoshop, it is flattened. I can't assume that no one is going to do this. I'm sending these ads out to over 100 newspapers and countless magazines all over the country. I needed to find the most bulletproof solution and I think I have. Do you really think you're going to notice a difference in 7pt type in newsprint if it is outlines instead of live type? I don't think so.
We barely have time to get sizes for these ads let alone detailed specifications from the printers, who are 2 steps away from us at all times. So I think the Distilled PDF is a solution that works, at least it has so far.
When I'm working on a national magazine, I layout in InDesign and export a PDF X1-A with the bleed and fonts included. That seems to be the most widely accepted format with a few exceptions that require you to download their preset.
I'm stickin' to it, unless you can convince me otherwise…
peace

[The Repro Kid]

Repro - If you open an PS EPS in Photoshop, it is flattened. I can't assume that no one is going to do this. I'm sending these ads out to over 100 newspapers and countless magazines all over the country. I needed to find the most bulletproof solution and I think I have. Do you really think you're going to notice a difference in 7pt type in newsprint if it is outlines instead of live type? I don't think so.
We barely have time to get sizes for these ads let alone detailed specifications from the printers, who are 2 steps away from us at all times. So I think the Distilled PDF is a solution that works, at least it has so far.
When I'm working on a national magazine, I layout in InDesign and export a PDF X1-A with the bleed and fonts included. That seems to be the most widely accepted format with a few exceptions that require you to download their preset.
I'm stickin' to it, unless you can convince me otherwise…
peace

Opening does not flatten the file. Saving changes after opening the file does.

Do you really think you're going to notice a difference in 7pt type in newsprint if it is outlines instead of live type?
You are confused as to how PDFs actually work. It is not an outline issue. And outlining fonts, especially small ones, makes them look worse and causes printing problems, slow print times and choked rips, but PDFs don't do that so you're okay. Your PDF type is not being converted to outline.

[Paul C]

I have to refute your statements about PS EPS files and Distilled PS EPS files.
Just to make sure, I just wrote a PS EPS with live type then tried to reopen it in PS. It comes up with the rasterize generic EPS dialog and when opened, you are slightly correct in that it doesn't flatten, just merges all the layers on to Layer 1 - all rasterized.
When you Distill a PDF X1-A, it creates outlines from the type. I just Distilled and opened in Acrobat, which reported no fonts in Document Properties and then Illustrator, which showed the type as outlined.
I don't see this as a problem in newsprint and it is certainly safer than running into CID font encoding issues, which I have quite a bit with newpapers.
I know what you mean about live type and if it is possible, I try to retain it, but in my situation running in 40+ markets around the country it isn't safe to send out a PS EPS file, not to mention the fact that most newspapers ask for PDF these days.
If you have a better way to retain the live type out of PS that doesn't encode the fonts as CID, please let me know. I am always open to new ideas.
Of course the technically best answer is laying everything out in InDesign but that is not practical due to the nature of the work. Even if I could, retaining live type in a PDF from ID will almost always result in CID font encoding. It shows up in Acrobat as CID or Identity-H. There's still a lot of RIPs out there that cannot deal…
I guess I really am back…
peace

[DCurry]

Opening does not flatten the file. Saving changes after opening the file does.

Actually, the flattening occurs at when you choose EPS as your format, rather than PSD. That's why Layers is greyed out and Save a Copy is automatically checked. There's no such thing (currently) as a layered Photoshop EPS.

I wouldn't send a Photoshop EPS with vector data to a publisher, either. They don't always work without intervention, i.e. changing some settings at the rip so it sees the vector data and keeps it as vector. On my rips, it will rasterize at my default setup unless I click a couple of options on that I normally don't want on. Plus, they might need to open it to apply transfer functions or something, thereby eliminating the vector data.

[Paul C]

Of course. My original allusion to a layered EPS was fallacious. But it does retain the vector data while merging all the rasters.
I just tested my second theorem and may be in for a surprise: I exported a PDF from ID CS2 as a X1-A and there was no CID font encoding. I wonder if this has been fixed in CS2? Time to write an ID Interchange doc and test it out…
peace

[DCurry]

Yes, Paul, IDCS2 only uses CID encoding when absolutely necessary, whereas CS1 did it to almost everything, it seemed.

[Paul C]

This is really good news!
thanks
peace

[The Repro Kid]

I have to refute your statements about PS EPS files and Distilled PS EPS files.
Just to make sure, I just wrote a PS EPS with live type then tried to reopen it in PS. It comes up with the rasterize generic EPS dialog and when opened, you are slightly correct in that it doesn't flatten, just merges all the layers on to Layer 1 - all rasterized.
....

This is what I'm tripping on.

It doesn't matter what it does when you open it, as long you don't save it.

Open it, look at it, close it, and don't hit save.

It will still print just fine.

As far as pre-press setup, this is what job tickets are for.

I'm not getting down on you, but I have a thing about unnecessary job convolution.

I'm not saying you're unencessaryily convoluting this thing...

[Paul C]

I see now what the misunderstanding is. Of course you're right. I think the logical question that follows is: Why would you open it in PS if you weren't going to do something to it, necessitating saving it? That's what I'm afraid of others doing and the reason I don't send out EPS files.
Am I insane? What a dumb question, of course I am…
peace

[Paul C]

After analyzing our "vigorous discussion" I decided to try a couple of experiments:
I placed the EPS in ID and exported - the fonts were outlined.
I wrote a PS PDF - the fonts were encoded as CID.
If there is another way for me to retain the font and not CID encode, believe me I'm all ears. Ideas?
peace out

[DCurry]

I got it, Paul - Control-click on your type layer and choose Convert to Shape. Now you can save as a Photoshop PDF with no fonts, but the type remains vector!

(Do I win a prize?)

[Paul C]

I actually wanted to embed the font, not outline it. I would like to preserve font hinting if possible. Presently I am outlining the fonts with Distiller. CS2 writes gigantic PDFs compared to Distiller, which surprises me since I thought it was using Distiller as the engine.
As for the prize, results are still out…
peace

[The Repro Kid]

Hey, I replied and it vanished! What's up with that?

It was a lot of work making that reply.

[Paul C]

Come on, Repro, DISH!
peace

[The Repro Kid]

Come on, Repro, DISH!
peace

Okay I'll recreate the post if I can

My workflow means that I have to set type in PS quite a bit and here's how I deal with it: I ... way…
peace

That won't really work for me Repro because all my work is sent out to multiple vendors. I ... me…
peace

Repro - If you open an PS EPS in Photoshop, it is flattened. I can't assume that no one is going to do this. I'm sending these ads out to over 100 newspapers and countless magazines all over the country. I needed to find the most bulletproof solution and I think I have. Do you really think you're going to notice a difference in 7pt type in newsprint if it is outlines instead of live type? I don't think so.
We barely have time to get sizes for these ads let alone detailed specifications from the printers, who are 2 steps away from us at all times. So I think the Distilled PDF is a solution that works, at least it has so far.
When ... otherwise…
peace

So let me get this straight. You submit finished, camera ready mag and newspaper ads in the form of photoshop files? Typesetting and all?

Well then it's easy. Just send the printers the photoshop files, type layers and all. Half of them will distill it, but in some cases it'll get printed and then you'll get your fonts. And they can open the files all they want, and nothing will happen,

If they don't take ps files, just slap it into indesign. Again, half the time they'll PDF, but half the time you might your fonts.

Or you could set the type in InDesign, and PDF the ID file and still get your fonts...

Oh yeah, your work flow only allows typesetting in Photoshop...

;)

My orig post went something like that.

[Paul C]

So let me get this straight. You submit finished, camera ready mag and newspaper ads in the form of photoshop files? Typesetting and all?
No I do the work in Photoshop and write a PS EPS and then Distill it. The newspapers get a PDF X1-A.

Just send the printers the photoshop files, type layers and all. Half of them will distill it, but in some cases it'll get printed and then you'll get your fonts. And they can open the files all they want, and nothing will happen
I'd rather not give them that much latitude, remember, I'm dealing with newpapers in 40+ markets with no real chance to have a dialogue with all of them.

If they don't take ps files, just slap it into indesign. Again, half the time they'll PDF, but half the time you might your fonts.
If you export a placed .psd from ID as a PDF or EPS it rasterizes. My understanding is that .psd doesn't really support vector except in the .psd. That got me thinking so I saved a PS EPS and then placed in ID and exported the PDF. It outlined the fonts.

Or you could set the type in InDesign, and PDF the ID file and still get your fonts...
Oh yeah, your work flow only allows typesetting in Photoshop...
This is the part that probably seems nutty, but let me explain why: All the ad materials I receive originate as PS files (standard for the music industry). I then have to take them and resize them to an unbelievable amount of widths, heights, etc… (thanks to SAU being a joke). The typesetting is very minimal, just dates and ticket text (they are concert ads). So to do this in ID is pretty cumbersome…
I still think the PS EPS Distilled is the fastest way around this and someday I'll be able to retain the fonts (maybe CS3 when I'm running a quad core Intel)…
peace

[The Repro Kid]

... ... ... ... This is the part that probably seems nutty, but let me explain why: All the ad materials I receive originate as PS files (standard for the music industry). I then have to take them and resize them to an unbelievable amount of widths, heights, etc… (thanks to SAU being a joke). The typesetting is very minimal, just dates and ticket text (they are concert ads). So to do this in ID is pretty cumbersome…
I still think the PS EPS Distilled is the fastest way around this and someday I'll be able to retain the fonts (maybe CS3 when I'm running a quad core Intel)…
peace

I'm sorry PualC, it's must be my old training kicking in. You see, in the old days, our supervisors would whip and beat us severely if we did not do our work correctly.

I understand things are different in the graphics industry today.

:rolleyes:

[Paul C]

I guess they are because I am the supervisor ~(-_-)~
Seriously, what is the problem with font outlines? Is it hinting in the smaller sizes? Many vendors (not newspapers) demand outlines. Do you really think you can see the difference in newsprint? Despite my occasional hardline, I am still trying to learn…
peace

[The Repro Kid]

There is no great problem if there are only a few lines.

In paragraph format the points can add up quick and with small type this add zillions of calculations, so it can take a long time to print pages full of text, but that's about it.

However, small text, even if its just a few lines, reads better than outline.

And readability really is what you are seeking, in this case, for your customer.

But outline makes everyone's like easier if there is no great volume of text.

[Paul C]

I am indeed at a few lines at most and have been pleased with the results so far. I wouldn't dream of setting an entire paragraph in PS. But just one further question (before I ask my next one): Don't outlines use the same points as the fonts themselves or are outlines a PS simulation of what the font designer intended?
peace

[The Repro Kid]

...But just one further question (before I ask my next one): Don't outlines use the same points as the fonts themselves or are outlines a PS simulation of what the font designer intended?
peace

O, ye of little faith. Set an entire page of 12 point serif type. Then duplicate this page of text and convert it to outlines. Then send both pages, the text and the outlines, separately of course, to a Post Script printer. Then judge for yourself the difference between both the speed of the printing and look of the text.

[Paul C]

Good test, Repro. Never thought of that one.
The outlined page printed just a hair slower than the font. Probably if you were printing a large multi page document it would be noticable.
The output is definitely different. Under the loupe the detalis of the outlined serifs are not as sharp. To the naked eye the outlines appear to be a semi-bold version of the font.
There is no doubt that I like the font better. I don't have any problem sending outlines to newsprint and actually in a lot of cases the semi-bold thing might work to my benefit, although I would like to be in total control…
By the way, I have a lot of faith in you. That's why I ask the questions…
peace

[The Repro Kid]

Paul, the semi-bold appearance and lack of detail lessens with the more resolution an output device has. It will be less noticeable on an image setter and more apparent on a laser printer.

Text fonts are handled differently by a printer then a postscript drawing of the outlines. The only drawback to having the type heavy up as it does, is it is not spaced correctly, which affects readablilty, but really only matters when the type is small.

[Paul C]

This test was conducted on a Canon 1140 color laser. So that makes me feel a bit better…
There is one thing I learned from all this that I can use immediately. During testing some of these ideas I found out that ID usually doesn't encode fonts as CID anymore, which was confirmed by DCurry. This is great news for my current project.
If you happen to read this, DCurry, do you know what triggers the CID encoding? Is it using an Open Type character outside the ASCII set? I have to be careful because such venerable rags as The OC Register and LA Weekly do not support CID. If they don't, I have to assume that a lot of the smaller papers I deal with don't either. That's how this workflow evolved.
I will now embark on some tests reconstructing the PS ad materials in ID and seeing if we can keep up with our work resizing the ads there…
peace

[The Repro Kid]

CID? I'm not familiar with that term.

In fact, where I come from, CID is short for a certain psychotropic controlled substance...

... just coffee for me, thanks.

[Paul C]

They also call it composite text. My understanding is now that Open Type has an extended character set, Adobe created a new encoding for text in PDFs. It shows up as CID or Identity-H when you check document properties in Acrobat. I got a call from The OC Register one day saying they couldn't run my ad because it had composite text. I had created it in ID CS. It was two seconds before they had to have it so that one ran rasterized (yuck). I did some research and found that what they were calling composite text were CID encoded fonts. There are a lot of older RIPs out there (especially at newspapers, it seems) that don't support CID so I had to rethink my workflow. Even if the ad was created in ID CS sometimes I had to export an EPS and Distill, creating outlines. It seems this font encoding is fixed in CS2, which I just realized. So, the endless tinkering with workflow is on…

In fact, where I come from, CID is short for a certain psychotropic controlled substance...

... just coffee for me, thanks.

Coffee has it's own psychotropic qualities and now that I'm older it seems to do the job, especially with a shot of Kahlua added in…
peace

[DCurry]

DCurry, do you know what triggers the CID encoding? Is it using an Open Type character outside the ASCII set?

No, I don't know what triggers it. I tried another solution 0 printing the Photoshop file to a postscript, then Distilling it, but it looks like it converts the fonts to outlines during the print to postscript stage.

Overall, I think you might be overthinking everything. Since you say you're not setting large amounts of type, you have nothing to worry about. And like Repro said, the higher the output res of the final device, the less of an impact outlined fonts will have.

[Paul C]

Overall, I think you might be overthinking everything.
Let me think about that for a while (•_•)
Seriously, even though there's not much text, I wanted to be able send out embedded fonts that work. I am not freaked out about the outlines (especially in newsprint), but anything that puts me in more control is a good thing. My ideal workflow is ID based, but I just haven't figured out a way to resize these materials in a timely fashion using it. Now that the CID issue seems to be more or less resolved, there's a good reason to explore this. We shall see…
peace