Um, has anyone noticed ...

[thebittergreen]

... the ominous message that now appears on the Subscribe page for the newsletter?

http://www.illustratortechniques.com/subscribe.html

I only subscribed a couple of months back, but it looks like the two issues I've received may be it!

If they've decided to fold the newsletter, why aren't they saying anything, particularly to subscribers (who paid a pretty penny for the privilege!)?

[MindBender]

Seems to me that one of three things would happen:

1. The information would be in the newsletter and in Layers.
2. The information would be in Layers, which you would receive instead.
3. They would have lots of very unhappy customers, which would pretty much bring the whole thing crumbling down.

I'm betting on #1.

[TORCH511]

I am guessing #2.

[rachelle]

I'd be ok if they switched to Layers..but as long as I get my full subscription that I paid for to whatever magazine they turn into. I need something to do while I'm at work!

Oh..and I hope they keep this site up, whatever is going on. I like it.

[Bennyeightball]

So does this mean I paid for two subscriptions to basically one magazine? If so, thats not right. Or do I get two of the same magazines in the mail? Or do I get a refund on this one and just keep the Layers subscription? I think an explanation might be in order.

[Amusedesigns]

I would hope that they take the same amount of content that is being provided in Illustrator techniques and add it to Layers. Right now, there really is only one or two tutorials about illustrator in Layers. I like the little tidbit sections that they provide too, and the artist features. I hope they don't take this site down, or if they do, incorporate ALL of the tutorials into the Layers Magazine site for future reference.

I hope that an email will be sent out to us subscribers so we can find out what is going on.

[Bennyeightball]

I just called customer service for Layers and the lady said she wasn't quite sure what is going on with this but all she really new is that they aren't taking any new subscriptions for IT Mag. So still, not really an answer.

[forsbergj]

I thoroughly enjoy Illustrator Techniques and hopefully it isn't going away. I already subscribe to Layers (which I also enjoy immensely) but I too would not care for 2 subscriptions to it. I would hope that those of us who paid the price for IT would get reimbursed for the remainder of our subscription if it is going away. At any rate, I agree that all subscribers should be notified of what is going on. Long Live IT (hopefully)!

[Bennyeightball]

I was told that it would continue until around the fall sometime, but no guarantees after that. They also couldn't tell me if this site would remain up for us all. And I agree, we should be reimbursed for the remainder of our subscription. If not thats kinda shady. It's like you buying an apple from me and you taking one bite then me taking it back without any refund.

[TORCH511]

Worst case scenario, if this site should go away I can host a replacement/substitute. Forums as well as space for tutorials including streaming video. A good friend of mine runs a small web hosting company, I lease a good chunck of a server and I get a lot of space and bandwidth, more than I could ever use.

Not too many illustrator communities out there, would like to keep this one intact.

Again, that is a WORST case scenario. Hopefully it does not come to that.

[alcbevtesting@alltel.net]

I was surprised to learn that they were not taking new subscriptions a few weeks ago when I looked into it. Though not (yet or ever now it seems) a subscriber I did notice a lot about slow subscription mailings and missed issues on some of the forums.

I think it was a bit of "too much too fast". They could not keep up with the demand - which is poor business planning in my opinion. NAPP has 50,000 members so figure there would be at least 5000 interested souls for Illustrator? There is far too much out there on Photoshop and, in agreement with comments above, not enough on Illustrator and InDesign. So I, for one, hope something continues with this site or that others will develop new Illustrator Resource sites. The potential is there - someone willing to fill the niche?

[jgreene777]

...NAPP has 50,000 members so figure there would be at least 5000 interested souls for Illustrator? There is far too much out there on Photoshop and, in agreement with comments above, not enough on Illustrator ...

I agree whole-heartedly. I don't subscribe to Layers because it's so Photoshop-centric. I really don't use Photoshop that much (compared to Illustrator) and have always wanted a resource like IT. That's why I subscribed as soon as I discovered it. I love the site too. I check it several times a day.

I personally think Illustrator is a much more rich application than many users give it credit for. As powerful as it is, Photoshop seems less feature-rich to me... but it may just be the way I work and the fact that Illustrator works so well with that style. I'm tired of all the Photoshop tutorials on the 'net and all the magazines have the same content. I haven't learned anything (useful) from a Photoshop magazine or tutorial in a long time. I have learned several new ways of using tools in Illustrator since IT (and this site) came along and I think these forums are a great place to learn from other designers.

Anyway, I would like to keep getting IT, but if they discontinue it, I want to finish out the subscription with Layers.

[Amusedesigns]

I for one am surprised that none of the admin people have come to clarify any of this for us. It would be much more productive to have someone tell us exactly what is going on rather than leave the entire community in the dark.

Anyone got any reliable insight?

[KrazyE]

The release of Adobe Creative Suite 3 – and the tight integration of Illustrator with other applications in CS3 – has opened up whole new worlds of creative possibilities to digital illustrators and other creative professionals.

That’s why we’re rolling the very best articles, tutorials, and other quality content from Adobe Illustrator Techniques into Layers – the “how-to” magazine for everything Adobe.

This change allows us to offer you even more in-depth coverage of Adobe® Illustrator®, as well as advanced tips and techniques for using Illustrator with Photoshop®, Flash®, Acrobat®, After Effects®, and the rest of the Creative Suite. Additionally, you’ll get product reviews, industry news, and feature articles on digital photography, graphic design, motion graphics, and more.

arehnert
NAPP Staff

That's all the info I've seen so far. I'll keep my eyes peeled for anything else over there.

[NEFlyer]

NAPP has 50,000 members so figure there would be at least 5000 interested souls for Illustrator?

I'm not a NAPP member.... but I subscribe to Layers and IT. I would be willing to bet there are many more like myself. Yes, maybe 10% of the NAPP members subscribe to IT, but think about all the non-members. I bet the number of subscribers is better than 5000.

Whatever happens, we need this site. We need an Illustrator community!

Love you guys!

[alcbevtesting@alltel.net]

My suggestion of 5000 was simply a lower limit estimate of the number of folks likely to be seriously interested in Illustrator, based on how phenomenal Photoshop seems to be (Not how many NAPP members might also be into Ill.). You are probasbly right that the number would be larger - hopefully much larger.

My point, mirroring yours, is that many more resources for Illustrator and InDesign are needed. Let the rally cry go forth to save IT or at least this site for folks to post questions and get answers.

How about NAIIP (National Association of Illustrator and InDesign Professionals)? Combination of resources (offering more indepth and specifc covereage to these mighty Adobe programs - and not watered down with ads, drivel and other (important program though not necessary here) information. Not like Layers magazine in other words.

Any Kelby-like giants out there willing to take this on?

[sjcaputo]

This is just flat-out wrong. The lack of information from our beloved publisher, the re-vamp of P-Shop Tv, and Mr.Kelby's rapid weight loss definitley indicate a major dust-up is in the works. I agree with the posters here- the forum community is far more valuable than these sparse and (rather fundamental) tutorials. The people on these boards are what makes this thing hum. How can WE preserve the enthusiasm here for Illustrator and prevent its evaporation into LAYERS? (Which would SUCK MY PCI SLOT!)

I opted for a 2 year excursion with Mr.Cross and Co. I just wanted to be able to voice my dissent and frustration. If they do disband our gang here, we should attempt a barebones board where we can link to resources on our personal sites. Also, since it was a hotly requested feature, how about a stinky little PDF? Granted, we're all busy, but would it realy require a Kelby-esque player to keep this Illustrator crowd together? I hope not.

"tecniche del illustrator per sempre"

[malart]

This is just flat-out wrong. The lack of information from our beloved publisher, the re-vamp of P-Shop Tv, and Mr.Kelby's rapid weight loss definitley indicate a major dust-up is in the works. I agree with the posters here- the forum community is far more valuable than these sparse and (rather fundamental) tutorials. The people on these boards are what makes this thing hum. How can WE preserve the enthusiasm here for Illustrator and prevent its evaporation into LAYERS? (Which would SUCK MY PCI SLOT!)

I opted for a 2 year excursion with Mr.Cross and Co. I just wanted to be able to voice my dissent and frustration. If they do disband our gang here, we should attempt a barebones board where we can link to resources on our personal sites. Also, since it was a hotly requested feature, how about a stinky little PDF? Granted, we're all busy, but would it realy require a Kelby-esque player to keep this Illustrator crowd together? I hope not.

"tecniche del illustrator per sempre"

I agree completely . I myself only use Illustrator, Photoshop,Autocad and 3dMax so for me going to a layers sub is not a good investment for resources as from what I have seen from layers it's heavy on PS and web orientation which doesn't do much for our company as we don't have a website.

Perhaps looking at a backup forum in case this goes away isn't such a bad idea. It's not hard to start a board and it can be done at no charge to begin with. I have done this with a flyfishing board and it worked out well. I can offer help in setting up if necessary , just message me if interested.

[TORCH511]

I had suggested a back-up forum as well. And the more I think about it, the more I would love (if IT goes away) to almost replace the whole thing. Start an online newsletter and community. And for starters at least, no charges, no advertising.

Not somthing that can be a one man effort, I certainly can not generate all the content on my own however I do have the resources already available to host a community similar to this one. Would love to see a solid community dedicated to Illustrator.

Everyone who has bought a $50 digital camera and has stolen Photoshop thinks they are photoshop experts, and imaging professionals. Illustrator users are a closer group of mostly true industry professionals and we can tap into that and really create a community.

[sjcaputo]

sorry, but wanted it to be timely.

[BigBearmaster]

Wow, I did not see this coming. It is time for an explanation from the IT crew! This site is incredible. I too, already subscribe to LAYERS.

[alcbevtesting@alltel.net]

While I enjoy free things as much as anyone I think such a community deserves a site that needs some funding. Whoever is going to host the site and prepare newsletters needs some reimbursement if just for covering expenses. Otherwise it like IT might fail.

While it would take some time to build up an economically viable entity I'd say $25-$50.00 founding membership fee for access to the site and maybe 12 newsletters a year might be a reasonable start. Bring in some InDesigners to help with the newsletter and build an Illustrator/InDesigner community?

Folks submitting tutorials could get some credit or a token fee to help reimburse them for their time and value. No published magazines (at least initially) and member only access to site tutorials and newsletters. Open forums like the case now to interest, educate and attract new folks. If the community grows to NAPP sized proportions and a newsletter grows into a full blown magazine charge a subscription fee to cover those costs on top of membership. Members can choose to just be members of the group and or to subscribe to a magazine. That way accounts can be reigned in concomitant with financial needs and growth. You start as an on-line community and see if it can grow from there rather than the way IT did it.

Just a few thoughts and ideas.

In other words (as the fellow above posted) you would be taking over where IT leaves off.

[TORCH511]

Just for the fun of it, I have started playing around with the idea, parceled out some space and started playing around with it. No name or anything.

As far as money goes, since the space is paid for there is no need for money. If a community can be built, and if I can round up the support enough to make a stable newsletter that can be taken to print... then subscriptions are a legitimate option. Until then, I would just like to see this community stick together.

[damian]

i subscribed for the two year bout also.

What about http://www.illustratorworld.com?

they have a semi monthly pdf mag, and an illustrator community also?

[semimoto]

[QUOTE=Torch511;3963]Worst case scenario, if this site should go away I can host a replacement/substitute. Forums as well as space for tutorials including streaming video. A good friend of mine runs a small web hosting company, I lease a good chunck of a server and I get a lot of space and bandwidth, more than I could ever use.

Not too many illustrator communities out there, would like to keep this one intact.

gotta love your unmittigated audacity,or perhaps mittagated, your right there aren't any exclusively Illustrator sites besides this one, i subscribe to layers( schetchy) theres alot of small tutorials that cover all of adobe stuff and alot of ads.
i dont think this sites going anyplace but if they do Mr. Christian , sign me up.

[dirtbomb]

... your right there aren't any exclusively Illustrator sites besides this one...

http://www.illustratortips.com/ and http://www.illustratorworld.com/ are both pretty much exclusively Illustrator sites. A little different, but Illustrator focused.

[alcbevtesting@alltel.net]

I attempted to post a question to Mr. Cross at his blog site (he moderates all comments) but needed to suggest he might not post but could contact me directly with an answer. The answer was not forthcoming so I posed the question again at www.spedsblog.blogspot.com (http://www.spedsblog.blogspot.com). I urge any interested persons to post a comment there for Mr. Cross and let him know how many concerned folks there are out there.

Gary.

[TORCH511]

http://www.illustratortips.com/ and http://www.illustratorworld.com/ are both pretty much exclusively Illustrator sites. A little different, but Illustrator focused.

Not a fan of either, having been to both. World is the better of the two, but still does not come close to this community. Plus they have ads, which is a sure fire way to keep me from being involved.

[semimoto]

http://www.illustratortips.com/ and http://www.illustratorworld.com/ are both pretty much exclusively Illustrator sites. A little different, but Illustrator focused.



thanks DB, such was the case when i looked for AI sites.
this site was supposed to be a sister of the NAPP site,including magazine and i have to concur w/ the other posts,
the members here are the exclusivity.

[davecross]

The management team has been off-site (and "unconnected") for the past few days at a planning/strategy session. That is why there has not been any recent replies to emails or messages.
I will be back in the office tomoroow and will be delaing with the backlog of emails and posts.
Thanks
Dave

[TORCH511]

It would appear as if the worst is happening.

Being honest, I mean TOTALLY honest:

I understand that like any business, IT lives int he real world and if you are not making money, then you are losing it and no one likes to lose money. I thank Dave Cross and the rest of the IT staff for giving it a shot, and at least for some time to give us Illustrator professionals a place to call home for a while.

I do not like Layers, either the magazine or the web site. I understand that with each progressive version of the creative suite application, the integration progresses as well, however the USERS are not integrated, and I fear that once we are assimilated into Layers, that we will be grossly outnumbered by all the wonderful photoshop hobbists - people who have bought a cheap digital camera and stolen a copy of photoshop - and our sense of community will be lost.

Call me a snob, but when you talk to a Photoshop user online, you have a 1% (if that) chance of actually talking to an industry professional. You talk to an Illustrator user, and you have a 99% chance of talking to an industry professional. I do not want to sift trough 100's of posts about how to remove redeye from little Johnny's first poopie photo to find one post that I may actually learn something from. Nor do I want wannabies that toss around the same old hack advice chiming in with thier 2 cents on topics that really do not concern them.

Not satisfied, with any existing community for illustrator professionals already in existance, I have already begun work on one that will rival the appeal of this site, as well as the functionality. It fails, it fails and I am out $8.88 but it's fun just to give it a shot. My email is in my profile so contact me if you are interested. So maybe I will see you there. If not then I hope to see you somewhere. I'll be around here until it goes away, whenever that is.

Again, thanks staff for giving it a shot.

[GrafxEditor]

It would appear as if the worst is happening.

Being honest, I mean TOTALLY honest:

I understand that like any business, IT lives int he real world and if you are not making money, then you are losing it and no one likes to lose money. I thank Dave Cross and the rest of the IT staff for giving it a shot, and at least for some time to give us Illustrator professionals a place to call home for a while.

I do not like Layers, either the magazine or the web site. I understand that with each progressive version of the creative suite application, the integration progresses as well, however the USERS are not integrated, and I fear that once we are assimilated into Layers, that we will be grossly outnumbered by all the wonderful photoshop hobbists - people who have bought a cheap digital camera and stolen a copy of photoshop - and our sense of community will be lost.

Call me a snob, but when you talk to a Photoshop user online, you have a 1% (if that) chance of actually talking to an industry professional. You talk to an Illustrator user, and you have a 99% chance of talking to an industry professional. I do not want to sift trough 100's of posts about how to remove redeye from little Johnny's first poopie photo to find one post that I may actually learn something from. Nor do I want wannabies that toss around the same old hack advice chiming in with thier 2 cents on topics that really do not concern them.

Not satisfied, with any existing community for illustrator professionals already in existance, I have already begun work on one that will rival the appeal of this site, as well as the functionality. It fails, it fails and I am out $8.88 but it's fun just to give it a shot. My email is in my profile so contact me if you are interested. So maybe I will see you there. If not then I hope to see you somewhere. I'll be around here until it goes away, whenever that is.

Again, thanks staff for giving it a shot.
No need to sift through "100's of posts about how to remove redeye from little Johnny's first poopie photo." If you go the Layers forum (http://www.layersmagazine.com/forum/), under the General Design and Software category are a number of sub-forums to choose from—one of which is Illustrator.

Annie

Annie Cushing
Managing Editor
Adobe Illustrator Techniques
acushing@photoshopuser.com

[Brice]

Removed comments.

[TORCH511]

Annie, I appreciate your suggestion however:

I had run into the layers website a while ago, and I just did not get a good vibe. When this all started happening, I went back to Layers and spent a while browsing through the forums, including the Illustrator and Indesign (among other) sub-forums.

After your suggestion I went back and bgrowsed through them again. I paused on one thread in the Illustrator sub-forum where the advice being offered was... what I would expect from a Photoshop hobbiest (meaning some punk 13 year old that figured out how to steal Photoshop)...

I found more of the same in other threads and for the third time, left the website with no desire to return.

Even with my sometimes harsh comments, the advice and critism I have found here is generally more on target. As much as I love the whole Creative Suite, I have no desire to associate with the masses of Photoshop users (though I would gladly chat with photoshop PROFESSIONALS).

But don't worry about pleasing me. Being the realist that I am I am all too aware of the realities of the publishing industry.

[GrafxEditor]

Removed comments.
Hi Brice,

The official word is posted under the thread "Until next time..."

Annie

[BigBearmaster]

Well said. Damn, I wish this site was making enough to keep it alive...

It would appear as if the worst is happening.

Being honest, I mean TOTALLY honest:

I understand that like any business, IT lives int he real world and if you are not making money, then you are losing it and no one likes to lose money. I thank Dave Cross and the rest of the IT staff for giving it a shot, and at least for some time to give us Illustrator professionals a place to call home for a while.

I do not like Layers, either the magazine or the web site. I understand that with each progressive version of the creative suite application, the integration progresses as well, however the USERS are not integrated, and I fear that once we are assimilated into Layers, that we will be grossly outnumbered by all the wonderful photoshop hobbists - people who have bought a cheap digital camera and stolen a copy of photoshop - and our sense of community will be lost.

Call me a snob, but when you talk to a Photoshop user online, you have a 1% (if that) chance of actually talking to an industry professional. You talk to an Illustrator user, and you have a 99% chance of talking to an industry professional. I do not want to sift trough 100's of posts about how to remove redeye from little Johnny's first poopie photo to find one post that I may actually learn something from. Nor do I want wannabies that toss around the same old hack advice chiming in with thier 2 cents on topics that really do not concern them.

Not satisfied, with any existing community for illustrator professionals already in existance, I have already begun work on one that will rival the appeal of this site, as well as the functionality. It fails, it fails and I am out $8.88 but it's fun just to give it a shot. My email is in my profile so contact me if you are interested. So maybe I will see you there. If not then I hope to see you somewhere. I'll be around here until it goes away, whenever that is.

Again, thanks staff for giving it a shot.

[illustrator_Tom]

Thanks for the link Annie.
You might want to get that spam off the Illustrator forum.

[Hexabuzz]

Wow, I don't mean to be harsh, but the Layers forums are a disaster...

It's (a) a spam minefield and (b) pretty much empty of content...

Boy, I can't wait to be a part of that! Yep, this is surely an improvement... We thought we had it good here, well just wait kids, you'll think you died and went to heaven when you get to Layers-land...

Dave

[Mike Hoffman]

Wow, I don't mean to be harsh, but the Layers forums are a disaster...

It's (a) a spam minefield and (b) pretty much empty of content...


Dave, I have to agree with you there. Perhaps, given the impending consolidation, they should consider making it a members-only forum. The quality could improve, and there certainly wouldn't be much to lose....

[sjcaputo]

I'm sorry, but am I the only one really pissed off about this? You guys are sure taking it all-in-stride. As far as I'm concerned I took $200 and flushed it down the toilet. Haven't received my 'options' email but people, have you seen the sub-forum on the Layers site?

I mean, how do I distress a vector image?

[TORCH511]

Steps are being taken to improve the quality of the Layers Forums, which should cut down the spam (advertising).

I would half agree on making it members only, you want to keep a substantial portion of it open to the public, as the forum acts as a marketing tool, attracting new members. However, it is possible (with effort) to have a portion of the forum blocked off and set aside for private use (many forums have such areas, you just don't know it).

As far as content goes... a forum is just a forum, it is the people that make it what it is. If enough people show up at any forum with the mindset that they would like to learn, and they would like to teach, then a good community will develop, content will be rich, and everyone benefits.

[semimoto]

I'm sorry, but am I the only one really pissed off about this? You guys are sure taking it all-in-stride. As far as I'm concerned I took $200 and flushed it down the toilet. Haven't received my 'options' email but people, have you seen the sub-forum on the Layers site?

I mean, how do I distress a vector image?


i would be pissed SJcaputo, just not worth the effort, and im not even considering the Layers forum, the magazine is analog spam , i havent received my copy for months,and the site tries to be all things to all people, "do one thing well " is the order of the day.
loved your WTF reference, at least they have given some warning, go in and delete our galleries, i was a member of a 3d graphic site for years, one day there was a notice that "ohhh well,i knew the day was comming but i have to close up shop" then we all found our work for sale on a russian web site (WTF)

[Budley007]

I don't see how this publication could have been so far "in the red" to pull the plug. I honestly don't think Illustrator Technique was given enough time. This place could have been a paragon of to the Illustrator community considering the competition out there. It already had the interest and participation of quite a few knowledgeble readers that I've come to rely on for Illustrator wisdom.

I had subscribed to Layers when it first came out and it just wasn't my cup of tea. The articles that interested me could be condensed down into about 10-12 pages. This is not a fair trade in my opinion, but to each his own. I'll just drop the subscription when it lapses.

As to having us migrate to the Layers forum? Well let me just say that I hope the people responsible for converting that heap into a viable forum aren't the same people who are running this publication. I really think you folks dropped the ball on this one.

[sjcaputo]

Where's my e-mail about my 'options'. By the way, there are AI video tutorials on the LAYERS site that they never bothered to post here.

*Sigh* Its official, our wonderful little guild has been assimilated into the barbarian horde.

Someone hold me.:confused:

[thebittergreen]

No "options" e-mail here either. I've been postponing getting angry until I see what those options are -- if the only option is Layers (which I view as basically an Adobe advertising supplement), well then, anger here I come. :mad:

I'm surprised at how badly they are handling this whole thing. I can understand making a business decision that the newsletter isn't paying off, but why be so oblique about it? They posted that notice on the subscription page weeks before saying anything directly (even then, only in the forums). And it seems like they still haven't even decided how to handle existing subscribers (which I'm guessing is the reason we are still waiting on those "options").

[sjcaputo]

Dave said it, but has anyone received 12 issues of AITN? I'm curious because I would really be hip to getting my hands on those. I hope its not considered a no-can-do 'option'.

[Scott Weichert]

It's not a 12 issue subscription.

[grrlfriend]

To quote sjcaputo, "WTF?!" I just received an email telling me to stay tuned but I feel I just lost my best friend. AITN was THE mag/newsletter I looked forward to receiving. I'm not the greatest illustrator user, but AITN and this site have opened my eyes to techniques that excite me as a creative. When I first heard there was a publication dedicated solely to Illustrator I thought that it was about time. Layers tries to do too much and as a result doesn't accomplish enough for my tastes. Trying to hit beginner to advanced users in a multitude of products just doesn't work.

[Tungsten]

This action smells like a large, greedy, aggresive corporation wanting immediate high margins. Consolidation and economy of scale will bring the profits up, but it will be an injustice to the community of artists and creative designers. I suspect that KM publishing will argue just the opposite. Apparently S. Kelby is really proud of his publishing accomplishments, and wants to drive that baby for all it's worth.

I am very dissapointed in this decision, but hey, what can a guy do. It does apppear that some are willing to fill the vacuum that is about to occur. I hope you are serious Torch511.

It seems that IT wasn't given a fair chance. A community was being served here, but now it will be absorbed into another less attractive all-purpose mass.

[davecross]

This action smells like a large, greedy, aggresive corporation wanting immediate high margins....


I understand the frustatration over waiting to hear what options will be available. We are working very hard to finalize the details.

However, when posts start appearing about corporate greed etc, I've got to say hold on, please be patient, and please don't make such accusations without any knowledge whatsoever of the financial situation of AIT.

I do not see any reason to keep this thread active when it is turning so negative.
Sorry, but that's the bottom line: we're doing our best in a very difficult situation.